Jews & Christians, do you think Christians must obey the 613 laws of the Tanach?

GREAT Question!

God is not operating under a law system today.

The law was given to the Nation of Israel to prove to them that they could NOT achieve a righteous standing thru obedience to it. Why do you think God gave them the sacrificial system of atonement once a year? It was BECAUSE they couldn't obey the law.

Gods requirement if you are under the law is that you obey 100% from birth to death, without messing up ONCE. NO ONE can do it, that's the point!

Today the law is called a curse to anyone who places themselves under it. Galatians 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Let's see what God has to say about the place of the law in a believers life today:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

"we are not under the law, but under GRACE."

"Christ is the END of the law unto righteousness to all who will BELIEVE."

There, that ought to do it...wink.

www.graceteacher.com

I am not a Christians, but I live among them so I think it is best to understand them.

I like the simplest answers the best: Gentiles that follow the god of Abraham are not Hebrews. They were never responsible to the 613 laws of the Tanach even before Jesus. They were only ever subject to the 7 Noahide Laws (which includes the just laws of whichever nation they are living in).

Cudos to problem and Juggling Frogs for keeping it simple.

(((Suzanne)))

ADD: The Jews have also made it clear that though Gentiles are free to follow some of the the laws, it can be rude for them to try and follow all of them.

There are actually 620 mitzvot {commandments} 613 0f which are given to the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai the other 7 commandments are given by the creator as universal comands from the time the world was formed, however the permission of eating meats within these 7 laws were not given untill after Noah and his children were comanded to come out of the ark.

EDIT #1-----Tzadik doesn't know his hand from his foot he is an imposter making statements to instigate contentions with his self pious attitude, and probably is not aware that he has no clue of his error, his mind is doubley darkened by his assuming interpretations.

Edit #2----Hello CMW yes I've been away cause I've been busy on other things I will probably be coming back off and on for now, but my desire is to be on so that I can partake of sharing words of the Tenach with everyone.

EDIT #3----- It looks like to me that Tzadik has a problem with understanding the relation between G-d allowing man to evolve, meaning; as far as allowing our teachers of old to show us how a partiqiular mitzva is performed or even manufactored such as the mitzva of the Mezuza that goes on the door posts or the T'fellin that goes between the eyes and bound in the hand, these partiqiular commandments are rather intreguing cause G-d does not give us instruction on how they should be made, wether they should be of a certain color or not wether they should be large in size or small wether rounded or boxed. No, tzadik is not realizing that there are commandments that G-d [left] to man [partiqiularly the rabbi's of Israel] to create the solution for and it's interpretation of there creation, thus allowing man's reasoning to expand and evolve.

EDIT #4.-----this one goes to Shmuel F. my respects to you for sharing those wonderful quotations from the source of life which we hold on too thank you for those beautiful words of life!

AWSOME YOU QUOTED WELL !!!!

No Jew will tell you that a non-Jew (Christian or otherwise) is supposed to keep the laws for Jews.

For the simple fact that non-Jews were not at Mt. Sinai to receive the instruction to do so - therefore it is not required of them.

But as a son or daughter of Noah, a non-Jew is to keep the 7 universal laws, which were instructed to Noah after the flood.

It is interesting that for some reason which I can not understand that some people believe that they can set aside part some or all of the law of God. It is foolishness to think that you have the authority or the scriptural mandate to do so.

First of all the 613 is a Jewish invention, we seem to forget that they too have their own axe to grind and are definatly Anti Messiah.

Second of all even a brief purusal of the 613 laws would show you that You don't have to keep nor are you expected to keep all of hte 613 law as some of them do not apply to most of us all of the time. There are laws that govern the levitical preisthood of which most of us are not. There are laws for governance and for the king which do not apply to most of us. There are laws pertaining that pertain to the sacrifices which must be done at the tabernacle or temple that do not apply since there is no temple. However the principles still apply. There are laws pertaining to women which doesn't apply to half the population and laws which pertain to men which the other half wouldn't keep.

In any case the whole Idea that God, The all powerful, All knowing, eternal one, somehow made a mistake and said "whoops, never mind." just doesn't sound like my God at all. If thats your God then I feel very sorry for you.

God has always been a God of Love and Mercy and Grace because the very person who died for our sins is exactly the same being who was the God of the old testament. Grace is mentioned twice as much in the Old testament than in the new and yet for some reason, and I think its because you don't really know who your God is, people seem to think his commandments, judgements and statutes are too harsh.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Those who are the true body of Messiah have both the testamony of Yahshua AND KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (Rev 14:12)

Repent! The Kingdom of God is at hand!

edit - Yes a jewish invention I believe there are more than 613 laws in principle and further more this one is based on an erroneous intepretation of the scipture and a close study will show there are others

Not to eat dairy and meat at the same meal. Funny God did with Abraham and well ... he wouldn't sin would he? This foolishness is based on a prohibition not to boil a kid in its mothers milk which was a pagan practice to ensure fertility. Therefore the law is a total fabrication.

Check your soarces before you judge what I say.

If anyone believes that God made a law, said it was for not only Israel but those strangers (non Israelites) who called on the name of the Lord then 1400 years later decided to throw them out then YOU are saying God said whoops Sorry I goofed. Yahshua is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Many people claim the Law is no longer in effect. I have an answer for them:

Shalom and thank you all for your opinion. But WHERE does Y'shua (Jesus) say the Law has been fulfilled and done away with? WHERE does Shaul (Paul) say that Law is no longer in effect?

Here's what the Word says:

He has remembered His Covenant forever, The Word which He commanded to a thousand generations, The Covenant which He made with Avraham, His oath to Yitzchak, And confirmed the same to Ya`akov for a statute; To Yisra'el for an everlasting Covenant. T'hillim (Psalms)105:8,9,10

The grass withers, the flower fades; but the Word of our G-d shall stand forever. Y'shayahu (Isaiah) 40:8

"But the LORD's Word endures forever." This is the Word of Good News which was preached to you. 1st Kepha (Peter) 1:25

Our Lord Y'shua said: "Don't think that I came to destroy the Law of Moishe or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and eretz (earth) pass away, not even one smallest letter(Yud) or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least Mitzvot(Commandments), and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Rabbi Shaul (Paul) said: Do we then nullify the Law of Moishe through faith? Heaven forbid, may it never be! No, we establish the Law. Romans 3:31

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Heaven forbid, may it never be! However, I wouldn't have known sin, except through the Law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Romans 7:7

Therefore the Law of Moishe indeed is Holy, and the mitzvah (Commandment) Holy, and Righteous, and Good. Romans 7:12

Gentiles aren't bound to become as Jews. The Bible says in Acts 15:20 and again in verse 29 what Gentiles are to do: V.29"that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell."

Also While I'm on the topic of Jew and Gentile, when did the 1st believers of the Gospel stop being Jewish just because they became Messianic? Christian is the Greek word coming from Christ or Annointed One. The Hebrew word is Mashiach or Messiah where Messianic comes from. The Entire Bible from Bereshite (Genisis) to Revelation was written by G-d fearing Jews. The 1st Talmudim (Disciples) of Y'shua were Jews. John the 'Baptist' wasn't a 'Baptist' but a Jewish man by the name of Yochanan calling other Jews to repentance and to prepare for the coming Messiah by ritually taking a mikvah in the Jordan River( Yochanan the Mikveh man doesn't have the same ring as John the Baptist). Jesus(Y'shua) came to this earth as a Jewish Man to fullfill 324 Messianic Prophecies in the Jewish Scriptures. Gentiles have been grafted into the Vine, whose roots are very much Jewish!

Shalom B'Shem Y'shua (Peace in Jesus Name),

Shmuely

No. As you put it, you are either under them all or under none of them.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

If I try to keep part of it, I am requred to keep all of it. As there is no Temple or priesthood for sacrifices, that is a bad deal all the way around.

****

Therefore, since I must be under law (since there can be no covenant without law) I will obey the law of Christ

Galatias 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ

This consists of all that Jesus and the apostles taught

Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you"

Jews believe the 613 commandments of the Torah are only obligatory for Jews.

We believe the rest of the world should follow the seven commandments of the bnei noach.

Kudos to "Goinupru" for a GREAT answer. (I also agree with Tzadiq up until his paragraph beginning with "in any case ...", after which I disagree completely.)

I think it's a grave mistake to assume that God said "whoops, never mind" and got rid of the Mosaic Laws. Heaven forbid that He should EVER make a mistake! No, the Scriptures are clear: the ones who erred were the Jews, not God. Remember, the Mosaic Covenant was a BILATERAL Covenant, not unilateral like the one God made with Abraham regarding the "land promise." In return for the Jews' obedience, God promised to bless them; if they disobeyed, God promised to punish them (see Deut. 28, for example). But the KEY point is that consistent obedience gained the Jews the priviledge to have Him as their God and they would be His people (Exodus 6:7a). God viewed this bilateral covenant as a marriage, with Israel being His "wife."

After centuries of obedience and disobedience by the Jewish people, God warned the Jews through Isaiah that they were dangerously close to being "divorced," but as a first step, He had distanced Himself from her (Isaiah 50:1). Later, in accordance with Deut. 24:1-4, God served the Jewish people with a Certificate of Divorce through the prophets Jeremiah and Hosea. Israel was divorced and the Jews, as a nation, were no longer the "chosen people." (However, the faithful Jewish remnant still was ... but that's a different subject.)

If you look at Deut. 24:1-4 closely, you'll see that the divorced wife was commanded to keep herself from marrying another man; if she does, the first husband cannot remarry her if she is divorced by the second husband. Similarly, should the Jewish people stay faithful to the Lord their God, He may remarry them at some time in the future. (This remarriage will occur during the Tribulation, although the "courtship" began with the first coming of Yeshua.)

You may be wondering what this has to do with your question, so I'll explain. The 613 Laws were given to the Jewish people as a way of bringing them under God's control -- remember, He characterized them as a "stiff-necked people," despirately in need of discipline. Currently, the laws are the unbelieving Jews' ONLY way of showing God that they have not "married" another god. Christians and Messianic Jews are NOT IN NEED of such laws, since we are subject to the laws of Messiah. As the Bride of Christ, we are ALREADY married to God. Think about it: why on earth would a WIFE have to follow the terms of a DIVORCE DECREE? Even on its face, it makes no sense whatsoever. That's why Paul spent so much time correcting the error of the Judaizers -- because he understood that very thing.

Tzadiq, I love you as a brother in Yeshua. But please, please, PLEASE read the Epistle to the Galatians prayerfully.

EDIT: (((Neutral Christ))) How can I remove that sad face and give you a happy one again, my brother?

Also, in response to Gentiles following the Mosaic Law: it's not true that Gentiles were "never" subject to the Mosaic Law. Gentiles living among the Jews in Israel followed the law, including making sacrifices, observing the dietary laws, etc. (cf Leviticus 17, for example.) By extension, some Messianic Jews believe that since Gentiles were "grafted in," this makes us the equivalent of "strangers" in the land of Israel -- therefore, we must follow the Mosaic provisions applicable to Gentiles. This is certainly an errant and twisted form of logic, but some do believe it nonetheless.

Jesus said that he came "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law". [Matt 5:17]. What this meant is that the Hebrew Law was set on the People of God, so that if they followed it, they would receive the Messiah. Jesus, as the Messiah, is the fulfillment of that covenant. Since the covenant is fulfilled, the People of God are no longer bound by it. Jesus also said: "I give you a NEW commandment: Love one another as I have loved you." [John 13:34] So he clearly indicated that His disciples were not to be bound by the old commandments, but to be bound by the new commandment of love of one another.

Jesus said the only law was Love. If you love God with all your heart and your neighbor as much as yourself, then you will be keeping all the laws.

Are you in a position where your being is entirely devoted to Love?

Let it be.